Jean MacColl on Gary Robertson - On Demand.
Thursday 9th January 2003.

(First few bars of Treachery).

GR: The fairly unmistakeable vocal talent of Kirsty MacColl. That was a track called Treachery that was on the last album that she made before her death two years ago. Kirsty was killed during a diving trip off México. But all this time on her family are still trying to get to the truth of actually what happened. So why can't they get answers? Well, Kirsty's mum, Jean, is leading the fight for justice and she's here now. Jean, good morning to you.

JM: Good morning, Gary.

GR: Hi. Now.- thank you very much indeed for joining us. Tell us first of all what you know about what actually happened to Kirsty.

JM: Well, of course I have two accounts. One, the official account from Cozomel in México and the other from my grandchildren. As far as I know.. what we're quite shocked about is that the prosecution has brought no charges against the captain of the boat, who was supervising the driver at the time of the accident. We can't understand this at all and, as I

said, it's now over two years ...

GR: Hmmm.

JM: .. and we're aiming for prosecution. And that's really to bring somebody, who is, if you like, involved in a criminal case, to account.

GR: This is the problem, isn't it?, that there are conflicting accounts here, as you say. There are the accounts of your grandchildren, who were there at the time. There are also the accounts of those on the boat. But isn't it the case that one of the people who was on the boat has actually faced charges as the result of Kirsty's death?

JM: Yes, and this is most extraordinary. Fact is that he had never been at the helm before. He was not qualified and he said he didn't know his right hand from his left hand and he didn't know what a knot was when he was asked what speed the boat was going at.

GR: But if he was at the wheel of the boat at the time of the accident, isn't he the one who ultimately should be responsible?

JM: Well, no. Because he was not qualified to drive it, you see. You have to have a qualification to drive a boat of that speed. And it would seem that the man who owned the boat, a Mr (Guillermo) González Nova, was really probably not qualified either because the horse power - I don't know much about boats - but the horse power was much higher than he was able to drive. In other words it was a very high-powered boat indeed and I think you would probably need some special qualification for that.

GR: Jean, tell us a little more about the circumstances here. I've never been to México. What is this area like? Is it an area where divers normally go? Is it an area where there are normally boats?

JM: Yes, this is extraordinary. I mean, a lot of divers go to Cozumel because of the wonderful reefs and there's a lot of scuba diving going on. And this was a national maritime park where one would not expect to have power boats coming in at great speed. And as my grandsons were in the water - were actually with their mother - and were nearly killed and they've seen sights that no children should ever see. And they said the boat was so high out of the water that they could see the propellers.

GR: Isn't it also the case that, ultimately, Kirsty died saving one of her children because the boat was coming for him?

JM: Well, apparently the younger child came up followed by his mother and then the elder boy and at that moment there was a warning: "Watch out!". And there is some mention that Kirsty tried to push the boy out of the way but it happened so very quickly that they - well, you can guess what happened. The younger boy had to turn around and swim in the wake of his mother and the boat.

GR: Is there something there that they had been to before? Was it somewhere that Kirsty knew and ...?

JM: Well, Kirsty had been there, I think, once before a year or two earlier and had enjoyed diving. She was a great diving fan, you could say, she loved the underwater life and she wanted to introduce it to her boys before they started doing O-Levels and A-Levels and this was, you know, a very special holiday - a treat - because she had been working on her last album and she'd been to Cuba to do the radio programmes, which followed on ...

GR: she did some programmes for Radio Two, didn't she? And ...

JM: Yes.

GR: ... in fact it's true to say that in some respects her career was seeing something of a revival.

JM: Well, it was fantastic. She was at the peak of her career, if you like, and she was very happy. It was taking off and she had all sorts of ideas for new songs and a new way that the music should go and this (the holiday) was to share her pleasure with her family and to come back just before Christmas and then she was going to start again on other songs and other work.

GR: Jean, what sort of effect has all of this had on your family?

JM: Well, it's pretty dreadful isn't it? I mean, what can one say? We are trying to survive and the only way I can survive is to fight for my family and to fight for Kirsty's justice. You know, one thing about Kirsty. She fought for justice whenever she found something to work for and I'm doing the same thing. You know, over two years nobody has been brought to account for her death and this isn't on. Somebody has to be responsible. Here is a man who has not been touched. He's not been brought to account.

GR: How much of a struggle do you find this fight for justice?

JM: Well, it's very difficult. We have lawyers and when you're paying two or three lawyers over two years, the financial burden is extraordinarily heavy. And as a result of this, friends and family and fans have helped me. I was working alone for eighteen months but now we've got a campaign going. And, if I may mention this, we've got an email campaign going where people can write emails to various authorities and you're given sample letters to - sort of show the way perhaps a letter should be written. The address there is Justice For Kirsty Campaign and the email address is (struggles for address). I'm sorry, ...

GR: It's okay. Well, what we could maybe do is just give out the general email address which is actually quite easy to remember.

JM: Yes, it's: support@justicekirsty.org - o.r.g.. But we also have a fund going for people who wanted to make a contribution.

GR: And is that an issue for you, actually - the money that all of this is costing?

JM: It is. Yes. And you know, when I think of Scotland - well of course, Kirsty's dad was Ewan. Ewan MacColl. And he had his fans and Kirsty is a different generation. And we've had a lot of inquiries and I'd like to tell people now, who do want to send a donation - which would be tremendously welcome and very helpful - and that should be sent to the Justice For Kirsty MacColl Fund, 63 Gunnersbury Lane, London, W3 8HG.

GR: Jean, I'll give out the email address out at the end as well .. so that .. the general email address - or the website address, I should say, and then everybody can get all the details they want from there. Are you sure that ultimately you will succeed in this?

JM: Oh, yes. We've got to. Absolutely. I'm going to Cozumel this month with a lawyer - I'm not looking forward to it. I have memories of how Kirsty went the last time - full of joy - and the way she came back... (Jean pauses and continues with some emotion) ... well, I will go and I will stand up and I will bring a case against him. I have to fight for my grandchildren. I'm really for justice. If we can get justice in one small part of the world, the world will be a little better place, won't it?

GR: Well, absolutely. And I can understand why it's very difficult for you to talk about it. Can you tell us a little about your experience of the justice system in México because you have been battling now, as you say, for two years.

JM: Well, I don't understand it at all. I think.. apparently there was no jury there. We are waiting to know what is the result of the case against this young man - but quite frankly, in England we wouldn't have to wait over two years to bring somebody who was responsible... - who was the owner of a boat - a high-powered boat in waters where it shouldn't have been and at a speed that it shouldn't have been ...

GR: ... Although in truth, we have had problems with our justice system too, here. I mean, no system is perfect, unfortunately.

JM: Well, it's not perfect but, I mean, is life so cheap in México? Are tourists so expendable? I mean, we've heard of other accidents and there seems to be no redress.

GR: When you actually go to México, what will you do? Do you want to confront this man or do you just want to raise the profile of the case?

JM: Well, I'm hoping to go with a lawyer and we going to be making a case against the captain of the boat. Purely.. I don't know what the charges will be at the moment. That is not in my hands. But I want to bring him to justice. He must know that he is responsible for what he's done. I mean, he is a very wealthy man, apparantly. That's beside the point .. the point is that won't bring Kirsty back. But he is .. he should be educated. He's an educated man, I imagine - I don't know, I haven't met him - but he runs supermarkets all round México. He's got wealth. I imagine that he should know someting of the law. Perhaps he does, and maybe the laws on us. Who knows?

GR: Would you like to meet him, Jean?

JM: Oh, yes.

GR: What would you say to him?

JM: I don't know what I would say. I would just like to hear him... I would like him to know the pain that he has brought about with the family - I'm the only woman in the family now - and the terrible suffering that my grandchildren have been through and Kirsty's brother had a heart attack, which he's recovering from, as a result of this. So I'm 'bashing on all rounds'* and he should know that and he should have .. you know, it needs somebody to stand up and say "Yes, I was wrong. I admit I was wrong.".

GR: Well, Jean, we wish you well with your campaign. Thank you very much indeed for taking the time to talk to us today.

JM: Well, thank you for having me. I hope maybe I can come back someday and say "Yes, we've won.".

GR: We'd be delighted to speak to you under those circumstances. Thank you very much indeed.

JM: Thank you.

GR: Nice to speak to you. That's Jean MacColl and if you want to check out the website it's www.justiceforkirsty.org and you'll get all the details that you need there.